ET: Engine (Twin) Seeking Ignition Suggestions For Twin - Can't Get The ATD Fitted

CarlHungness

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I am in the UK just 15 miles from B-TH man I have not heard that he wont recondition a mag he certainly did mine about 3 years ago after a decade on the race track its now on my road Comet worth asking the head office...
I corresponded with him and since my B-TH is 20 odd years old it is not of the new design. He said he'd take a look at it, but post to the UK is extreme, then post back..so he recommended buying a new one. I took the unit to a race car
mag specialist today and the best they could suggest was to turn it slowly with a drill and see if it sparks. It is sparking, so I'll re-install it in the morning.
 

CarlHungness

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Yes, it works well to add coil ignition to a defunct mag but it won’t help you as it still uses the mag, minus cam & points setup, and is driven and advanced by the ATD.
They say no, just install the ATD in any position. My problem really isn't getting it to sit on the taper..I can do that, but when I do the unit must be in an ever-so-slight bind because the ears are stuck open. So I re-install, jiggle, loosen, etc. to get the ears to 'just' pop closed...and can't get a combination whereby the ATD is on the taper and the ears are totally free. Here's their reply: "Regarding the ATD, you don't need to touch it, it just stays in position and will continue to work as before (if it does work!). If you have taken it off already, just put it back on in any position, the timing is set up by making adjustments to the ignition kit, not the ATD, and it can be in any position."
 

CarlHungness

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Having spent the money rebuilding magneto I r would try a new ATD Talk to the supplier /manufacturer the new ones I have have slightly longer arms that the springs attach and are an improvement. Maybe if you discuss your problems with the supplier / manufacturer he could give an opinion
The new ATD is in excess of $300 US..plus postage. I think mine is actually fine and have possibly fouled up the taper by lapping it to the ATD which I've done twice. As noted elsewhere in this post, It is easy enough to get it set, I can see it move back toward the engine case when I tap it, and then I have the ears stuck in the OPEN position. So I've tapped lighter...which seems to work..then the damn thing must be slipping on the taper. "Find the problem," my good friend and ace Vincent mechanic says to me, and I run out of talent and inherent mechanical skills. The time was in about 2002 and before when I removed the Lucas and had it rebuilt I was able to finagle the thing back on to the mag
without taking off the timing chest, and all worked as it should. Not now. I try to install the mag with the timing chest on and the ATD in place and fumble getting the bolt started, which I've done a few times, but then encounter the sticking ears once it is set.
 

Chris Launders

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I know this is a bodge but it will work to prove the point, make a conical shim out if say a drinks can, easily cut with a sharp pair of scissors and being aluminium will seat and grip, it needs to fit the mag taper, be slightly shorter and have only a small gap when closed up.
 

CarlHungness

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I know this is a bodge but it will work to prove the point, make a conical shim out if say a drinks can, easily cut with a sharp pair of scissors and being aluminium will seat and grip, it needs to fit the mag taper, be slightly shorter and have only a small gap when closed up.
The mag goes on the taper just as it should. I get the bolt started, ATD ears wedged open, slowly tighten the bolt, without the washer, tighten it some more and I can see the gear moving back into place and can feel it is starting
on the shaft. I loosen the bolt slightly, insert the horseshoe washer. finger tighten it up some more 'til I can't turn it and now the gear is even further back. I take a socket and put it over the bolt onto the washer, tap it, and the gear moves back even more onto the taper...and without tightening the bolt any more...the ATD ears are stuck open. My wooden
dowel that goes in-between the ears has literally NO jiggle. So I do it again, and this time I'm able to take out the wedge and the ears snap closed. The bolt is finger tight. I finger tighten it just a tad more, and the ears lock..so I go
back and forth trying to tighten the bolt with a socket held by my fingers, and I can feel the place where the ears
lock up. I quietly swear. Thus I fiddle back and forth and ultimately get the ears to stay open, and feel like the ATD
is ON the taper. I put the timing cover back on, hook up the oil lines, install the pipes, etc. Kick it, and what do you know it doesn't start and I check the timing and the ATD has slipped. I'd bodge it with JB Weld if I thought I could get by with it. I've had the pipes off 6 times, have over 50 hours in trying to solve my ham fisted problems. I just took out the B-TH bench tested at ultra-low RPM's with my drill, did the whole routine once again and ran out of patience. I'll put the cover and pipes back on in the morning and kick it once again. I just don't see how a shim, Teflon Tape would work too..is going to help the ATD ears. I can get the ears to stay open, and then can get them to stick just by finger tightening the bolt. I'm surmising there is some internal slop on the ATD or the taper that's cocking the thing so much it binds up the ears.
Maybe my method of finding TDC is actually incorrect, maybe I'm on overlap. I take out the plugs put it in fourth, look at the rear cylinder and the moment I turn the wheel forward the exhaust valve moves. I see it go open and then see the intake start to open. I go round to the other side, put my finger in the hole, move the wheel forward and feel a little puff..I move it some more, feel more of a puff and I see intake closed both valves are closed..I stick a rod in the cylinder and feel the piston is coming up, up, up..that's TDC on some stroke. I go over TDC a hair, I go back down a little and do it again, and feel what I think is TDC, then back it down enough to clear the spark plug stop, install my spark plug stop, go forward until it hits the stop. Maybe I can't tell over-lap from compression stroke, but I THINK I can and have thought so in the past, and have started it in the past with this method. So ANY suggestion as to finding TDC I'll take.
I know I can't install the ATD to satisfaction with the timing cover on.
 

chankly bore

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I know this is a rough Colonial suggestion, and by no means the best engineering, but could you centre the whole magneto in a four jaw chuck and skim maybe 1/16" from the mounting face to bring the shaft further in to the timing chest. And get rid of the gasket, use a sealant instead. Use a thin bit of paper to check that the A.T.D. boss is actually fouling the timing chest wall. If the A.T.D. is fouling the magneto body itself the foregoing wheeze is useless.
 

CarlHungness

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I know this is a rough Colonial suggestion, and by no means the best engineering, but could you centre the whole magneto in a four jaw chuck and skim maybe 1/16" from the mounting face to bring the shaft further in to the timing chest. And get rid of the gasket, use a sealant instead. Use a thin bit of paper to check that the A.T.D. boss is actually fouling the timing chest wall. If the A.T.D. is fouling the magneto body itself the foregoing wheeze is useless.
That's a good suggestion to my mind.
 

oexing

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Carl, here comes another idea: You got a BTH mag on the shelf with same taper shaft ? Get the ATD out and put it onto the BTH like you do on the bike: Tap it lightly onto the taper and then have the nut tightened while watching how much it pushes the ATD closer to the BTH case. Once a taper is seated it should never shift much more on a shaft by screwing the lot down. My thinking is, you got a crack in the ATD component with the taper so in consequence you can push it anywhere by force. And it will not keep the ATD at its timed position. At same time any flyweights may get stuck by deformation somewhere possibly - I don´t have a working Lucas ATD at home.
While waiting for your findings about this matter, have you come upon any defects around the carb troubles you seem to fight ? I am not current with present diagnosis on this.

Vic
 

greg brillus

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More likely the taper has bottomed on the shank on the mag shaft, or the ATD bolt has become shank bound, or similar.......The same has happened to me on the new BTH mags with the new solid drive gear assembly.......in this case the face of the holding bolt bottomed on the mag flange just as the taper was pulling up tight........needed to either put a spacer washer behind the bolt or machine a small taper in the thread end of the same bolt to allow it to pull up tight and not bottom.......This to me sounds like Carl's problem.
 

Chris Launders

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Does the ATD lock up when mounted on the magneto OFF the bike ?

If so you have a problem with the ATD,

If not my proposed shim would in effect increase the diameter of the taper, so the ATD would nip on to the shaft FURTHER OUT thus clearing anything behind it.
 
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