Counter Steering: Does Anybody Have An Explanation? - Demystification Required

[Bill Cannon]

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession

The second diagram demonstrates exactly what I was talking about.

The twisting force (handlebars) produces pitch in the freely suspended rotating wheel, i.e. no contact point required.

Q.E.D !!

 

[Peter Holmes]

I always prefer both wheels to be in contact with terra firma, last time that was not the case was whilst riding on the Isle of Skye between Upper Breakish and Broadford in 1974, and I managed to remove a rather large area of skin from my thigh and hip, back then the wound was treated at the excellent Broadford hospital by cleaning the wound with peroxide (ouch! ouch! ouch!) and then dressing the wound, frequently!
Yes I definitely prefer riding to flying.

 

[Speedtwin]

We all do it instinctively, most of us without recognition of the fact we are doing it.
However.
Dangerous during off camber corners when the front is unweighted.(washout)>.

I recommend practicing every time you are out for a spin around your favorite sweeping bends.
Colin Edwards and Kenny Roberts both teach advanced track/road craft on off road bikes to exaggerate the movement the feeling in order to demonstrate better drive better adhesion to enhance a safe corner line.

The forces involved want us in very simple terms during cornering are saying out you go, when we slight weight steer we turn ourselves in, thus we maintain our corner trajectory or line whilst optimising possible contact adhesion.

Al

 

[John Reynolds]

The force required to turn a vehicle with pneumatic tyres is generated by the contact patch running at a slight angle to the direction of motion of the tyre. This is known as the slip angle. To generate the required force, the front of the wheel must be turned towards the direction to which the vehicle is intended to turn, i.e. to generate a force which will turn the vehicle to the right, the wheel must be turned slightly to the right. This turning is clearly apparent on the front wheels of four wheeled vehicles but no so apparent on two wheeled vehicles which are also required to bank to prevent overturning.

Banking is obtained by countersteering the front wheel, utilising the phenonmenon of gyroscopic precession. For the right turn previously exampled, the two wheeled vehicle must be banked to the right; gyroscopic precession requires that the front wheel be turned to the left, i.e. the opposite way to that required to produce the slip angle for the desired right turn.

The answer to this contradiction is that the rider first countersteers to the left until the desired level of lean has been achieved then brings the steering back to slightly to the right of centre to produce a slip angle which then turns the bike. When the turn has been completed, the rider turns the bars further to the right which, again by gyroscopic precession, brings the bike back to an upright position, whereupon, he straightens the steering.

All this is done unconsciously by someone who has acquired the 'knack' of riding a bike. But we can all remember how difficult it was when we first tried to ride a bike; that was because we expected to have to turn the steering to the right if we wanted to turn to the right. The result was that we fell off! It wasn't until we stopped thinking about it and let our subconscious reactions take over that we were able to master riding the bicycle.

However, while relying on our subconscious serves us well for 99% of cornering situations, problems arise when, having entered a corner at an angle of lean which is appropriate for the vehicle's speed and sharpness of the corner, we suddenly find that the corner tightens. The inexperienced rider panics. His head tells him that he needs to apply more lock. Result: the bike lifts up and bike and rider disappear though the hedge on the outside of the bend - or worse!

It is to avoid such reaction that it is worth knowing about (and practicing) countersteering because, faced with the tightening corner scenario, the informed rider will know that he must do exactly the opposite of what his head is telling him and steer once more to the right so that the bike leans further.

John

 

[Russell Kemp]

Now the divorce courts, my only advice is get yourself a good solicitor and barrister, if you want to retain ownership of your Vincent that is! steering left or right is unlikely to achieve this.

Or like me you sell all of your bikes to a few mates for a £1 each and move them out when the wife (now ex wife) is out then buy them back when the now ex wife has moved out

 

[greg brillus]

That sounds like a great idea if your wife is completely oblivious to the value of your bikes........I use to do that with my music gear, guitars, amps and so on years ago........got away with it, cause they tend to look the same.........Not the same story with these bikes though.

 

[Bill Thomas]

Interesting John, Over many years, Every now and then , I have felt that a bike is fighting me,
More so when on a bike , Not mine, But mine also,
I have always said I am not a Natural Rider,
Every bend I have to think through,
I have been on the road with Natural Riders, And nice to watch.

Just thinking if when Stressed / Worried, Like in the wet, Which I don't like, Maybe a bit of History ?,
A bit of tightness in the shoulders etc, Could upset the "Knack "?.

I know about Counter Steering, Reg Bolton told us about it in MPH, 30 or more years ago,
So I went out and Played !,
Maybe a bit Dangerous if tried too hard ?.

 

[Peter Holmes]

Or like me you sell all of your bikes to a few mates for a £1 each and move them out when the wife (now ex wife) is out then buy them back when the now ex wife has moved out

You were fortunate to get away with that ruse, had your ex wife had a half decent barrister for the financial hearing you definitely would not have.

 

[greg brillus]

I've felt mild head shakes on a Vincent at quite low speed.......so not always an issue at high speed........several things that can definately make the front ends feel very unstable at low speed, either from take off and/or low speed cornering.........The 2 bad ones are either a steering head bearing race that is crooked in the steering head itself.......not uncommon on the lower race as this is difficult to install with the oil tank still mounted atop the engine........some bikes that have suffered some form of head on crash.....this will distort the bearing pockets especially the top one that pulls forwards and elongates the housing.......this is difficult to fix and simply loctiting the race in does not mean it is actually in line with the lower race anymore.......another less common one was a bike whereby the owner had installed 21 ball bearings in the top race assembly........this made the front end feel very unstable at low speeds........So really any miss alignment of the 2 head race bearings will cause a very noticeable weaving of the front end to some extent.........Some other but less contributors are a badly bent front rim, and also if the axle bearings are shimmed too loosely........these can also cause a weave in the front. Amazingly a lot of these symptoms/faults have come to me from owners who were completely oblivious to any issue.......After the installation of the JE stem kits and hydraulic dampers, it seems to show these faults quite readily i've found.......even a slightly loose steering column nut (slight play in the bearings) will show as a definite "Clunk" comming from the front end.......an easy fix, but again it shows up more readily with the upgraded front end mods.......All interseting stuff, I think........

 

[Jez Nemeth]

Totally love the added confidence the JE stem adds to riding, did notice as you say steering bearings needing to be spot for the full benefits to be felt...The handling is to my mind hugely better, running a 21" at front -always worried it was going to ride like a penny farthing on a downhill MTB track-unexpectedly precise and smooth though. Rake and track will have a clear effect on where the rider places their weight to initiate, less counter steer required in a comparable situation on larger wheel size -or skittishness of a crosser and extended forks...