Egli-Vincent Engine Numbers

[Nomadnigs]

Can someone please explain to me how Egli-Vincent Engine numbers work.

This question is being raised following a recent Egli-Vincent Black Shadow project I noticed which passed through the Bonhams Books: https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/25580/lot/149/

Logically, to the uninitiated, it looks like the engine number consists of two distinct parts; the first six digits being an Egli prefix: EV13AL, and the remainder being a standard format Vincent engine number: F10/AB/1/1821.

If this is the case I have two questions; why is it described as a Black Shadow when it's missing the 'B' after the '1'; and why is the Vincent component of the number identical to the engine number on my Rapide?

Many thanks

Nigs

 

[TouringGodet]

The Egli number is not literally a prefix, I believe the Egli number was stamped above or below the Vincent number, and the auction house just lists them together.

That Egli bike reused a Rapide motor, but Egli may have rebuilt it to Shadow spec.

One or the other, the one in the auction and your Rapide, was likely restamped, assuming no typos. Contact Simon the machine registrar and give him your crankcase mating number (do not post it here) and pictures of your numbers, and he may be able to tell if they are legitimate or not.

 

[Nomadnigs]

Thanks Steve

Simon has already checked my numbers but I will contact him again just to be sure

 

[Bill Thomas]

At the bottom they changed the number to 1621 ?, Strange . Bill.

 

[Nomadnigs]

Well spotted Bill

As I have all the original paperwork with my bike which match the numbers on the engine I'm hoping this is a Bonhams typo

 

[Simon Dinsdale]

Bill is correct. Bonhams got the engine number wrong and then corrected it on a salesroom notice at the bottom of the description. I can confirm the bike sold by Bonhams in that auction lot was engine 1621. Why they called it a Black Shadow Egli project I don't know as the engine is from a Rapide. The only slight connection is a previous owner has painted the engine black.

EV13AL is the Egli engine number given/ added to this engine by Fritz Egli when he built the engine into one of his frames in the late 1960's and is completely seperate to the Vincent engine number.

Simon

 

[davidd]

I think the problem is that Bonhams does not understand the Egli production history. Fritz produced only a handful of bikes. The bulk of the Egli production was done by Slater. Slater did not keep records. Fritz does have some limited records.

All of Fritz's frames were built with metric tubing. Just about all of Slater built frames were imperial tubing. However, Fritz supplied frames to Slater for a few years until Slater got Eric Cheney to build frames in England. Thus, many of the early Slater Eglis had metric frames built by Fritz with Slater engines. It was just as likely that a Slater Egli would be sold as a kit with frame and accessories only. The purchaser would install his own engine.

A Fritz built engine had his own "EV" engine number stamped on the case, like EV5 does with the "
EV13AL." A Roger Slater engine would probably have an engine number that started with "RS". They normally left the original engine number alone. Because many of the Slater Eglis (and some of the Fritz Eglis) were frame only kits, you cannot rely on there being a special EV or RS engine number on every bike
.

I took the above photo at the public auction at Barber.

Fritz seemed to stamp all the engines he built with or without frames, so the engine numbers were much higher than the frame numbers. Fritz stopped building Egli Vincents in 1969, which was only the second year of production. The models he sold were called "Shadow" "Lightning" and "Lightning R". Bonhams always reports this incorrectly by adding "Black", which was not something that Fritz used.

Fritz lost interest in the Vincent mostly because he could not get a supply of engines. Roger Slater was supplying engines for him and he finally licensed Roger to build the bike while he moved on to other bikes.

These were the three models Egli offered:

The Shadow was almost certainly had a Rapide engine. However, all of the bikes engines could have been Rapides because Egli saw the names as models that were only loosely based on the Vincent models. For Fritz the models indicated different performance specs and different uses.

The best known model of the Roger Slater era was the "Shadow 70" (for 1970), but there was no permanent marking of that model designation on the engine or frame.

David

 

[TouringGodet]

If Bonhams can add a note at the bottom, why not go ahead and fix the prominent number at the top as well? Jeez.

 

[Trevor Lever]

My 70 Shadow also has the Slater part of the engine stamped on the crown of the frame, though very faintly. I’d not noticed this until recently when doing some minor repair work on the paint. Having purchased it in late ‘71 off the original owner, I doubt that it has been tampered with since it left Slater’s in ’70.
The biggest problems with this bike were when it left Slaters, no side stand, no steering stop, etc!
Interestingly the orig Vin No is only one off the Slater mfg year!
Trevor NSW.

 

[Whiteshadow15]

Yeah Bonhams butchered a few things on our Egli, glad to see someone on here ended up with it. Still kicking myself for letting it go.

I’ll have to see, I think I still have some money orders for nick pierce when the bike traded hands in the 80’s, might not be important but found it interesting anyways.