ET: Engine (Twin) Programmable ignition

[eglijim]

Any one have input regarding user programmable ignitions for twins. Very tempted by the systems available for Harleys, which have several options as standard and also permit you to construct custom parameters which include +or - 10 degree offset from the 45 degree Harley norm for the rear cylinder. Suspect it should be much more cost effective due the comparatively huge Harley market with worldwide component ,spares and support availability.

Please bump to whichever section of the forums is most applicable.

 

[Michael Vane-Hunt]

Dynatek make programmable electronic ignition modules. I have one on my Comet and Chris Kleps has one on his Egli. They work well. You will need to make a housing to hold the ignition sensor.

 

[davidd]

Oldhaven (Ron) has been working on an ignition that can be programmed for Vincent twins. I don't believe he has run across any serious problems with it, but he is working with the owner to have the unit re designed to work with a 50 degree bike rather than a 45 degree bike. All of Power Arc's ignitions so far have been based on multiples of 45 degrees. They can make a 50 degree unit, but they have some tooling costs to take care of. Ron has run the 45 degree unit on his engine for a test with success.

https://www.vincentownersclub.co.uk/index.php?threads/comet-mongrel.9389/page-8#post-91167

http://www.powerarc.com/

The IDS system is their software.

Bob Lamour in Canada has a Harley based ignition, but I am I don't think it is programmable as we use that term now. He has been working with Oldhaven to provide the housing for the Power Arc ignition for Vincents by modifying his existing housing for the HD ignition.

David

 

[Cyborg]

Converted Atlas Ign for the Comet The mechanical tach drive may become redundant because I'll probably end up using a Smiths digital tach. It is a pretty slick ignition and Ron's system will be plug and play.

 

[Oldhaven]

I have been running a Power Arc HD single fire (Two coils, no waste spark) programmable ignition since late summer last year, though weather is preventing any further testing lately. In order to use it I had to accept the HD 45 degree angle that is programmed into the ignition, and also had to time the ignition to TDC on the front cylinder as number 1. The Rapide starts and runs great and I put about 300 miles on it before it got too cold /rainy/snowy to continue. Apparently a Vincent is not too particular about that timing discrepancy over the 720 degrees. I did think that the average Vin twin owner would not be happy accepting the odd angle and timing on what is normally number two cylinder, so I approached one of the principals at Power Arc about getting the ignition reprogrammed for 50 degrees and rear cylinder as number one. Apparently that is not as easily done as I had hoped and I will have to make a small but substantial for me investment to get that done. There are also some new version systemic changes being made to the Power Arc modules to simplify the types needed for single, twin, single fire, dual fire, single plug, dual plug to allow using a single ignition type and a smaller variety of coils. I was waiting to get all that behind me and to work out coil mounting details before saying too much.

As David mentions, Bob Larmour and I have been working on modifying his housing used for another more standard HD ignition. We hope to reduce the diameter required for the 3" diameter HD module to a British dimensioned 2.7" mount similar to a Lucas points plate. The larger HD housing interferes a bit with the oil filter housing requiring some metal removal. Old Britts uses this available size mounting adapter for the Power Arc ignition they sell for vertical twin Nortons. That is what Cyborg used for his adaptation to a Norton point box, but it required a bit of creative fabrication. Bob and I hope to make this easier with a purpose built housing and shaft to suit the Vincent. Bill Norton is also using one of these adapted systems on his Comet engine and is quite pleased.

As is shown in the Power Arc website, it is possible to buy at reasonable cost an edge card programmer cable with USB and download software to a laptop that allows the user to design a new advance curve and upload it to the ignition module. This can be done without removing the ignition from the bike or retiming making tuning relativley fast and easy. While I don't think this would be useful and might be a bit too risky to engine and piston life for the average rider to get fancy with, highly tuned machines with high compression, dual plugs or modified cams and racers looking for the best performance might want to play with this, especially if a dyno is available.

Here are the curves I am running on my Rapide right now as shown on my PA programming software. They are what comes as programmed on the HD Power Arc single fire system. When I finally finish my Comet project and put a PA system on my TP head dual plug special I will be using a Voes switch to automatically change the timing maps under load, and may put an on/off swich on the other sensor wire to vary timing experimentally until I arrive at a good conclusion. Without a dyno or a good feel for racing conditions, I don't think seat of the pants changes are anything I can quantify. For now, I have grounded both sensor wires to give the most advanced timing. No noticeable pinking and performance and starting is good. The sensor wire ground and unground switching is how to change maps As you can see there are three sparks per event and the curves do not simply flatline at around 2000 RPM as a lot of ignitions and the Vincent ATD tend to, but continue to change for considerably longer. it would be great if some of you with more knowledge of timing advance could comment on this. Dwell and coil saturation timing is also programmable, but messing about with this could cause some problems. Rev limit can also be set.

So, for now that is where this is at. I hope to see some results of the module reprogramming from PA this late winter or spring, and to do some testing, on my Rapide and with several other owners who have expressed an interest in trying out the first ten units.

More to come

Ron

 

[Oldhaven]

To keep things in one spot, here is a picture of the HD ignition as currently installed

 

[eglijim]

I have been running a Power Arc HD single fire (Two coils, no waste spark) programmable ignition since late summer last year, though weather is preventing any further testing lately. In order to use it I had to accept the HD 45 degree angle that is programmed into the ignition, and also had to time the ignition to TDC on the front cylinder as number 1. The Rapide starts and runs great and I put about 300 miles on it before it got too cold /rainy/snowy to continue. Apparently a Vincent is not too particular about that timing discrepancy over the 720 degrees. I did think that the average Vin twin owner would not be happy accepting the odd angle and timing on what is normally number two cylinder, so I approached one of the principals at Power Arc about getting the ignition reprogrammed for 50 degrees and rear cylinder as number one. Apparently that is not as easily done as I had hoped and I will have to make a small but substantial for me investment to get that done. There are also some new version systemic changes being made to the Power Arc modules to simplify the types needed for single, twin, single fire, dual fire, single plug, dual plug to allow using a single ignition type and a smaller variety of coils. I was waiting to get all that behind me and to work out coil mounting details before saying too much.

As David mentions, Bob Larmour and I have been working on modifying his housing used for another more standard HD ignition. We hope to reduce the diameter required for the 3" diameter HD module to a British dimensioned 2.7" mount similar to a Lucas points plate. The larger HD housing interferes a bit with the oil filter housing requiring some metal removal. Old Britts uses this available size mounting adapter for the Power Arc ignition they sell for vertical twin Nortons. That is what Cyborg used for his adaptation to a Norton point box, but it required a bit of creative fabrication. Bob and I hope to make this easier with a purpose built housing and shaft to suit the Vincent. Bill Norton is also using one of these adapted systems on his Comet engine and is quite pleased.

As is shown in the Power Arc website, it is possible to buy at reasonable cost an edge card programmer cable with USB and download software to a laptop that allows the user to design a new advance curve. this can be done without removing the ignition from the bike. While I don't think this would be useful and might be a bit too risky to engine and piston life for the average rider to get fancy with, highly tuned machines with high compression, dual plugs or modified cams and racers looking for the best performance might want to play with this, especially if a dyno is available.

Here are the curves I am running on my Rapide right now as shown on my PA programming software. They are what comes as programmed on the HD Power Arc single fire system. When I finally finish my Comet project and put a PA system on my TP head dual plug special I will be using a Voes switch to automatically change the timing maps under load, and may put an on/off swich on the other sensor wire to vary timing experimentally until I arrive at a good conclusion. Without a dyno or a good feel for racing conditions, I don't think seat of the pants changes are anything I can quantify. For now, I have grounded both sensor wires to give the most advanced timing. No noticeable pinking and performance and starting is good. The sensor wire ground and unground switching is how to change maps As you can see there are three sparks per event and the curves do not simply flatline at around 2000 RPM as a lot of ignitions and the Vincent ATD tend to, but continue to change for considerably longer. it would be great if some of you with more knowledge of timing advance could comment on this. Dwell and coil saturation timing is also programmable, but messing about with this could cause some problems. Rev limit can also be set.

View attachment 19936View attachment 19937View attachment 19938View attachment 19939

So, for now that is where this is at. I hope to see some results of the module reprogramming from PA this late winter or spring, and to do some testing, on my Rapide and with several other owners who have expressed an interest in trying out the first ten units.

More to come

Ron

We have in the past used various bits from Dynatek and am generally happy with the Lucas RITA on my road Egli. The problems start when you need to move the plot to suit Kickstart or Electric starter, Twin plugs and the different max advance needed for different fuels or bored and stroked engines.
The thrust of my enquiry is why seek to re invent the wheel when it seems all of the above is readily available without going down the one off route. The Dynatek 2000i ( other suppliers are available with the software at no cost)kit for Harleys'. My understanding is that this lets the user move the advance for the rear cylinder by +- 10 degrees. When we did some dyno work on my 1150 Egli 20 years ago the engine was sensitive to a changes of advance of 2 or 3 degrees so 5 degrees off on the rear or both off by 2/3 degrees would be unacceptable . These ignitions,( Glenn Bewley has a Rapide fitted with the Harley/John Mcdougall version) look as though they happily fit into one of the available magneto replacement castings or maybe one of the old Dolphin twin points mountings. Complete kits are available for well under £150 via ebay or direct from dealers which makes the cost of some other systems nonsense. Would like to know if any are in use and their power consumptions ?

 

[A_HRD]

Don't forget the 47 degree Series A Twins - some owners would like an electronic variable ignition for that too.
Peter B

 

[Oldhaven]

Peter,

Now there's a real challenge. I'm afraid that is a true one-off project. Since it has a timed driven shaft I am sure it can be done, and discreetly, as would probably be required. ;>)

 

[eglijim]

Converted Atlas Ign for the Comet The mechanical tach drive may become redundant because I'll probably end up using a Smiths digital tach. It is a pretty slick ignition and Ron's system will be plug and play.

As a hater of drive cables for instruments , have to say that with the exception of machines that need to stay standard there is no way i would fit any form of mechanical tachometer or speedometer to a build . Have found a digital speedo with data logger invaluable when setting up carburation without resorting to dyno time. Just to easy to set the "gate" parameters to time the interval from 60 to 110 in third (or any of your choice) to see the effect of jetting changes.