Black Shadow with buggered numbers.

[Jeb]

Hello.. I own a 51 Rapide and years ago, I was told about a guy who had his fathers Vincent. Well, I actually tracked the bike down recently and have been in conversation with owner. The bike broke down while the father was racing it and the engine need a major overhaul. He`s about 10 hours away so I have not been able to see the bike up close, but was sent pictures and to my surprise the bike is a Black Shadow. Of course that got my blood boiling and explained to him where to find all the numbers. I received the pictures the other day and the numbers are very obviously stamped over. You can see a seven stamped over a five. on the front frame. It very obvious and you see other numbers stamped over on the lower frame. Even the engine numbers look liked they were tinkered with but not as obvious. I just spoke with the owner this afternoon and talked to him about the numbers and he agreed that you can see the numbers have obviously been restamped.
He said he would like to sell the bike, but what kind of value does the bike have? The rebuilding of the bike is going to be the same no matter what numbers are on the bike. I also wonder about making it legal, any official can obviously see the numbers are stamped over. What should I do?

Thanks Jeb

 

[greg brillus]

It might have been a "Harper's rebuild" like my Rapide, built/assembled by Harper's in 1962 from all sorts of left over parts and the numbers changed for whatever reason they had..............Who knows. Being a Shadow with miss-matched numbers will affect the value considerably, especially if its condition is poor.

 

[Graham Smith]

@Jeb I wouldn't assume anything until you've spoken with our Machine Registrar.

Get all the numbers including the all-important crankcase mating numbers and see what he makes of it.

 

[Jeb]

Thanks for your input. Just sent numbers with pictures to the Machine Registrar. It just doesn't seem to make sense.

 

[Albervin]

Not wanting to pre-empt what Simon says but it may not even be a Shadow. Certain restorers, past and present, have been known to produce Shadows in their sheds.

 

[Hugo Myatt]

Not wanting to pre-empt what Simon says but it may not even be a Shadow. Certain restorers, past and present, have been known to produce Shadows in their sheds.

Mike Creamer, ex-Vincent works employee, later at Lawton and Wilson, Southampton, ran a service converting Rapides into (almost) Black Shadow specification. These were the so called Creamer Shadows. However he did not alter the engine or frame numbers.

 

[vibrac]

I am sure the registrar has a compendium of all the stolen machines notified in MPH and elsewhere since the year dot they do surface from time to time as any escort frigate will tell you

 

[Peter Holmes]

I think unless they have been tampered with, the crankcase mating numbers will tell all you need to know, about the engine at least, I very much doubt that the forgers bothered to restamp those numbers whist committing their deadly deeds.

 

[Simon Dinsdale]

Jeb
I have just sent you a reply via email about the Shadow and the photos you have sent me. All I will say on this forum is oh dear....!!!!

Simon

 

[Albervin]

Despite everything, the machine has a value. You only have to look at previous Bonhams auctions.